Curse

Gill Halendt · Apr 17, 2010, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

With grind, your game experience consists out of re-doing everything you already did.
Without being rewarded for grind, you could STILL do that. Which means that if there was less grind, you could do the exact same thing you are doing now, but we wouldn't have to suffer the negative consequences we have to suffer now.

Probably not.

Without grind, and the "rewards" it brought, I don't think I would have kept playing the same content over and over. Getting the GWAMM was my goal, and I was perseverant enough to reach it even tough I couldn't spend much time playing the game, while some of your friends weren't. So? Does this mean the goal should be quicker to get? Sure, go for it, I'm all for it, but do you think your friends would be still playing now if they managed to accomplish all of their titles anyway? With no new content to play? With no new reward on sight?

Now my grinding is over, and I'm totally devoted to my friends. For as much as I enjoy helping them tough, it's admitedly not the most exciting experience in the game for me so far, and I don't believe I'll be playing this forever.

I don't believe any of my friends or temmates would blame me for quitting a game I'm tired of playing.

drkn · Apr 17, 2010, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Quote:

However in Prophecies, the mesmer gets not only Rogue but also Elite Rogue armors.

so a ranger is not an archer/marksman/whatever, but a druid?
making such assumptions based on armor's name is a bit too much.

Quote:

Now lets also not forget that the D&D Bard class not only used melee and spells and mind affecting chants/songs, etc, it was also a pickpocket=thief.
[snip]

i don't find pickpocket equal to mind stealing.
i don't know if you're familiar with magic: the gathering, but would you call this a rogue? think not.
a bard uses songs to confuse the enemy or vitalise friends. i haven't seen any party buffs in mesmer skills, tbh, and that's what's usually bard is based on. on the other hand, i've never seen a bard disrupting enemy's energy, but that might just be me.
i won't even mention the differences in weapon used - since you've brought d&d up, it's a major and significant factor. i've never really seen a bard/rogue/thief to use a magical staff very well. rogues and bards are more lasombra-like thiefs than mesmer-like thiefs, although it's not the best connection either.

just the fact that mesmers are designed as actors doesn't make them bards - not everyone who uses illusion as one of his main weapons is alike.
rangers summon spirits and cause vast environmental changes, so are they shamans? paragons have wings in animations, so are they angels? dervishes have avatars, so are they doppelgangers?
think not. you're taking just a little part of what you see and connect it with something that has little to no connection at all.

upier · Apr 17, 2010, 10:12 AM // 10:12

MagmaRed · Apr 17, 2010, 12:35 PM // 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turbo Ginsu

We can agree that Prophecies was the first installment of GW, yet the word "Rogue" wasn't invented for GW. If it were like that, then surely the word would, at least in a gaming sense be more likely to have been created for D&D, if it was that line of thought you attacked it from. However in Prophecies, the mesmer gets not only Rogue but also Elite Rogue armors. Now lets also not forget that the D&D Bard class not only used melee and spells and mind affecting chants/songs, etc, it was also a pickpocket=thief.

It doesn't take much thinking then to get to the idea that regardless of which side of the coin you're looking at, mind altering/skill stealing spells, or the Rogue armors available since the first installment, or the fact they're actors, not unlike Bards, that the Mesmer then is indeed a thief class.

Sorry if that makes you feel dirty for using one or whatever, but if it walks like a duck..

I have played many games where a Monk was a martial arts class more like a Warrior or Assassin, and not a healer. Even the Roughspun/Ascalon armor looks like a martial arts style clothing, just without a colored belt. And their dance seems to be practicing martial arts. In every game I have played where Thief was an option, I played it. I love the idea of being sneaky and stealthy. When I saw Guild Wars had the Mesmer class, I made an assumption like you did that it was a Thief based class. It took me about 2 days to realize I was wrong. I do agree they took some skill names and armor names from the idea of a thief class, but Assassin has far more Thief style skills and armor than the Mesmer does.

Do I need to continue with Paragon and Bard?

Gill Halendt · Apr 17, 2010, 03:05 PM // 15:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Now, I agree that not only you but other people played this game more than you would had there been less grind. Not everyone is like me and enjoys making a new character and running around Shing Jea because of how insanely pretty that place is.

I've made over than 25 characters so far, pretty much for the same reason, go figure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Grind comes into play with mostly hardcore players. The amount of grind in this game means that casual players are excluded from the start. Someone who only manages a few hours per week will never grind GWAMM. Grind for casuals has no positive effects.
When it comes to the more hardcore players - grind has two two effects - the one shown by your behaviour, where you are encouraged by grind and the one show by me - where the grind is making me not want to play.
So by modifying the amount of grind, for instance by reducing it, you'd get more people like me to play and less people like you. By increasing it - you'd have more players like you playing more and less players like me playing.

This is plain oversimplification. You assume that I (and "people like me") wouldn't have enjoyed less grinding, or faster achievements.

The problem is that "faster achievements" rarely translates in people interested in the game after they've reached their goals: achievements are the finishing line for a lot of players, else they wouldn't give up playing before they can get them. So by reducing grind, the result will be that we'd get less "people like me" playing, and also more "people like you" with no reason to play anymore...

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

What would also happen though is that by reducing the grind, casuals wouldn't be excluded from the start. Which means you could get more casuals to play the game for a longer amount of time. The bonus of course is that casuals massively outnumber the hardcore.
So by reducing the grind, you'd probably end up with a more healthy population or at least a population that isn't as insanely obsessed with efficiency as we are.

You'll just end up with more people grinding (even casuals, now induced by the easier goals), being tired of the game earlier and quitting, which is exactly what ANet is trying to avoid.

Do you really think that, say, an Allegiance title maxed at, what? 5 million Factions would be more casual-friendly? And that means HALVING the Factions needed to max it.

Unless they actually REDUCE grinding so much that every title in the game is accessible for casual players as well... Then watch the residual lifespan of the game plummet...

I'd rather have more and more creative/interesting ways of obtaining accomplishments and titles, not simply easier/faster ones.

About the "healthy behaviour"... Well, the high ammount of grinding has caused me taking a well relaxed approach. I'd be probably more "obsessed with efficiency" if I had the chance to reach my goals faster, so that I could move on to the next.

JDRyder · Apr 17, 2010, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

His complaints of the game being so easy is largely due to the imba. A lot of people don't get much satisfaction by having to shoot themselves in the foot for "challenge". It's true that in time you will always master a game, but that shouldn't be reached so easily. Playing through Dragon Age with the pause button turned off is harder than this, and DA is *horrendously* balanced.

Not using SY, asking for a nerf to SY, whats the difference?

Death Syndrome · Apr 17, 2010, 03:25 PM // 15:25

I just hope this is pve only changes, god knows we do not need these people messing with pvp anymore than they already have.

JDRyder · Apr 17, 2010, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Death Syndrome

I just hope this is pve only changes, god knows we do not need these people messing with pvp anymore than they already have.

Though I haven't GvGed for awhile, my old GvG friends say todays meta is the best in the history of GW. That being said I have tried it yet

Death Syndrome · Apr 17, 2010, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Though I haven't GvGed for awhile, my old GvG friends say todays meta is the best in the history of GW. That being said I have tried it yet

5 smiters is always fun.

Seriously they always fully change (not nerf) my favorite skills when I start using them (old wod, with many others).

And I have a good feeling my favorite one may get changed this update, even though it hasn't been changed since the release of the skill itself. Rarely even seen in gvg.

Infanta · Apr 17, 2010, 05:36 PM // 17:36

all mesmers need is to make many of their hexes AoE in PvE, or to greatly reduce the cool down on most of them. Perhaps also a bit of number tweaking to make them more powerful in pve.

I HATE how they handled mesmers before, with ridiculous pve-only skills. I want mesmers to not be stupidly powerful, but strong enough to make interesting builds with.

JDRyder · Apr 17, 2010, 07:17 PM // 19:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infanta

all mesmers need is to make many of their hexes AoE in PvE, or to greatly reduce the cool down on most of them. Perhaps also a bit of number tweaking to make them more powerful in pve.

I HATE how they handled mesmers before, with ridiculous pve-only skills. I want mesmers to not be stupidly powerful, but strong enough to make interesting builds with.

The problem with that is you'd just see N/Mes rather than Me/X.

agrios · Apr 17, 2010, 07:19 PM // 19:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Infanta

all mesmers need is to make many of their hexes AoE in PvE, or to greatly reduce the cool down on most of them. Perhaps also a bit of number tweaking to make them more powerful in pve.

I HATE how they handled mesmers before, with ridiculous pve-only skills. I want mesmers to not be stupidly powerful, but strong enough to make interesting builds with.

I tried to say that before:

"I believe that, since in PVE thats a lot more targets with a lot more health, the mesmers in PVE could be adressed in two ways.

1 - Buffing some skills to affect one target at massive spiking damage. Ex.: Energy Burn
2 - Buffing other skills to affect more than one target. Ex.: Empathy.

Plus...I believe mesmers should have more flexible ways to recover mana. Since they cast at a higher rate, they tend to burn mana quickly. Example: at each 4 or 5 points of Fast Casting they could gain 1 point of mana each time they interrupt a target."

..but dont know how the thread became about grind and not about mesmers..

Cuilan · Apr 17, 2010, 07:23 PM // 19:23

If you browsed the previous pages you'd read that turning them into just damage dealers won't help them if they're not he best at it, just damage doesn't fix the more unique parts of a mesmer, etc. Mesmers should have an option do do decent damage, though...

Interrupts to gain energy would be awful and makes me wonder if you use a mesmer in PvE, Agrios.

Maybe try replying to those posts and ignore the Upier party above.

Bryant Again · Apr 17, 2010, 07:38 PM // 19:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Not using SY, asking for a nerf to SY, whats the difference?

Nerfing SY: You help balance the game
Not nerfing SY: You don't help balance the game

Infanta · Apr 17, 2010, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

If you browsed the previous pages you'd read that turning them into just damage dealers won't help them if they're not he best at it, just damage doesn't fix the more unique parts of a mesmer, etc. Mesmers should have an option do do decent damage, though...

Interrupts to gain energy would be awful and makes me wonder if you use a mesmer in PvE, Agrios.

Maybe try replying to those posts and ignore the Upier party above.

AoE hexes like [Guilt] or [Shame] with a bit longer duration would be very much like having an offensive prot monk - you prevent damage by not letting monsters cast as often. Then a shorter cast [Diversion] for annoying or very dangerous mobs to cut down their spam able skills. Let the mesmer do what he does, just adjust it to make sense for pve, and you can see the Mesmer has a decent role in PvE HM. At least it sounds good on paper...

JDRyder · Apr 17, 2010, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Nerfing SY: You help balance the game
Not nerfing SY: You don't help balance the game

/rolleyes

If you're not using SY, the game is balanced to you.

Do I think it needs a nerf? Sure, but till than if you feel its really that OP and messes up the game, just dont use it.

Bryant Again · Apr 17, 2010, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

/rolleyes

If you're not using SY, the game is balanced to you.

Incorrect, try again.
Ignoring problems doesn't solve them. SY should be an option for defense in PvE, not the solution.

JDRyder · Apr 17, 2010, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Incorrect, try again.
Ignoring problems doesn't solve them. SY should be an option for defense in PvE, not the solution.

Now you're just nit picking and don't have a point at all

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Do I think it needs a nerf? Sure, but till than if you feel its really that OP and messes up the game, just dont use it.

Death Syndrome · Apr 17, 2010, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Is SY a PvE only skill? I just looked at my mes skills and did not see anything that has S and Y in it.

Lishy · Apr 17, 2010, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Mesmers will be the next overpowered profession, hands down